Ashley

Thank you for joining me here today. Did you guys want to introduce who you are and your role to the project?

Col

Sure! My name is Col Cseke. I'm your boss, technically, but really, I'm your pal. And we work here together at Inside Out Theatre. I was the production manager on this show, which meant that mostly I had to ask the designers for things and then mildly disappoint them when they asked me for things that I didn't have to provide. And then we figured it out together. That was mostly my role.

Ashley

Love it.

Kodie

My name is Kodie Rollan. I am the artistic director of Chromatic Theatre, who is the co-producer with Inside Out Theatre. And I was also your dramaturg for the last two years, so that basically means we worked on the script together. But also, was kind of like a theatre or playwright doula — so just helping you get through the writing process and getting this up on its feet.

Ashley

You were absolutely my doula. I love that! And then this is Ashley King here, playwright, actor, performer, just hanging out on the last day of performances, just in between our matinee and our evening performance. We're currently sitting on our stage. Which is a… OK, I'm blind, how would you guys describe our set?

Col

Well, I've been doing touch tours because I've also been the one doing the audio description any time we have a blind audience member… So a touch tour is a chance for our blind audience members, before we open the house to the rest of the audience, to have a bit of time on set to literally feel around, to touch it, to kind of walk the dimensions, to have an up-close look at some things. And just to get a really good kind of mental map and sense of the space for when they sit down, and I'm describing action, they've had a sense of what's on stage.

And so when I welcome folks in for a touch tour, I say, well, the set is inspired to look like a Mexican cantina. So it has some rough wood walls that were initially painted with like big, bright, vibrant colors of pinks and greens and blues. And then our brilliant set designer kind of dirtied it up a little bit to make it look well lived in. Atop the ceiling, in addition to the theatre lights, there's also, like many, many strings of twinkly Christmas lights and about a dozen fluorescent signs that say things like Tropic Like It's Hot… Tiki Bar… Happy Hour. There's a naked woman, a peach, a sunset, things like that. Across the set is, just general decorations that we imagined you would see in a Mexican cantina — there's a little ukulele, a number of kind of Catholic religious symbols, a sombrero, bottles hung from the ceiling, things like that.

Ashley

And we have a beautiful altar that we created from a… a chest of drawers? What would you call that?

Col

Yeah, a wardrobe, wardrobe, I guess. A hutch.

Ashley

A beautiful hutch that, in the show, Carolina, Ashley's mother, sits in. And at the beginning of the show, comes out of this altar and is presented to the audience like the Virgin Mary, like an angel. Just that's come out from the heavens…

[clip from the show — a thunder clap, angelic music, and the audience laughs]

And at the end of the show, goes back into the hutch, and it's like his little… his little is a little home that he sits in.

Col

A little mom in a cupboard.

Ashley

A mom in a cupboard!

Kodie

Yeah, we're trademarking that. Hashtag mom in cupboard!

[everyone laughs]

Ashley

But yeah, it's feeling pretty surreal sitting here in between our last two shows on the final day of our world premiere of Static: A Party Girl's Memoir! I wanted to talk to you guys a bit about thinking back to how this all began, because I've been in talks with the two of you about this show for what feels like millennia. And yeah… how you guys remember this whole project started?

Kodie

This is Kodie speaking. For me, I got this project, or this project was put in front of my desk, after we met the first time. We got to know each other. and you talked about how you were starting to write this play about your life story. So it was around the time that you applied to Chromatic Theatre's playwrights’ unit, which is a unit where Chromatic Theatre invests in the development of new scripts by racialized playwrights.

You applied and we read it, and we absolutely loved it. So it was a no-brainer for us to invite you to the unit. And then we spent like eight months working within that unit. And then that followed, a two week workshop with actors and a director. And Javi [Vialta] was already the director that we chose, and then we casted Jaime and we had an amazing actor named Marshall Vielle who played you, because I remember when we were talking, you had said that, oh, maybe I would play myself in this project as well. And I said, you know, actually… because the focus is on the development of the script, maybe it would be nice if you just listened so you can focus on being a playwright rather than having two hats on of being a playwright and an actor.

Ashley

Which was great advice! (laughs)

Kodie

So it was really great. And then, you know, through that process, for me, I really felt like the show had a lot of potential and could have a life of its own. So I decided to program it for Chromatic, and I messaged Col — I think I ran into Col at a number of events — and I kept being like, hey, we should talk, because, you know, Ashley’s show is a great chance for our companies to co-pro [co-present] — and here we are, like 4 or 5 workshops later.

Ashley

Yeah! What about you, Col?

Col

Well, I remember my first memory of you talking about this show is when you hooked up with Bruce [Horak] and Rebecca [Northan] and as they started mentoring you and encouraging you. And I think my memory is, specifically, encouraging you to make your own work. Bruce and Rebecca are both, like, just inherently creators — they're both talented actors who can pick up a script and do a great job — but the magic that I've seen coming from those two artists is when they've created something themselves, and often together.

And so, yeah, I remember early, early days of you really… expressing that you had no idea what you were doing and were really discovering a lot through their help. And I remember seeing… the first time I heard the first version of this script was again, like a Zoom reading on Covid. And similarly, you weren't reading it. I think Rebecca read as Ashley, and at that time, the script was for one actor, like it was a solo show just for the Ashley character. And I think it was through that Chromatic work that Carolina became such a central role and became this, you know, kind of love story. I always think of it as a love story between you and your mom. Yeah. So that was my first impression of it.

Ashley

I remember that Zoom reading. And the whole time I was texting you and I was like, Oh God… Oh God, somebody kill me. Somebody strangle me right now. I can't possibly hear my writing anymore, this is so cringe. And it was, yeah, really hard to hear your own writing and especially over Zoom because you don't — I couldn't see people's faces reacting, I couldn't hear people laughing. And I was like, oh, this is awful!

Col

Oh, a Zoom reading for a new comedy is a nightmare because you don't get laughter. Like, it's so hard without any audience feedback. And, you know, the cast, or the team that's doing it, this is their 20th time hearing that joke, so they're not really laughing as much anymore. It's, like, real trial by fire. It's rough.

Ashley

Yeah, very rough though. You're right. It's early days, like, before Covid happened, was when I first started talking to you, Col, and you were like, Ashley, write your own show. And I was like, oh, my God, what I do… you’re like, well, apply for some grants. And we got the first grant — hooked up with Rebecca and Bruce — Covid happened, wrote online… had that awful Zoom reading, was like, ‘not looking to this script for the next year’… put it down. Met Kodie, picked it back up, did the playwrights’ workshop… Kodie took a chance and was like, ‘yeah, we're going to program this show.’ A couple more workshops later and I was like, Holy crap! It might have been 4 or 5 years that it took, but it feels like it happened so quickly. And now we're wrapping up the world premiere of it, which is unbelievable. And we've had such an amazing run.

Kodie

Yeah, one of the things I'm proudest of in this entire journey was watching you go from ‘I hate this script’ to ‘I actually love this script and love doing the script.’ Because I remember when we first started working together and you told me about the Zoom reading, you kept repeating to me, ‘I don't think this show's ever going to go up. I don't think the show's good. Is the show funny?’ There was just so many doubts and I kept telling you, I'm like, Ashley, you're a natural storyteller, so you are naturally funny. And we talked about how hard a Zoom reading is. But seeing that shift and the excitement that you had with the show, the more workshops we kept having, the more you started to understand the journey of the show.

And, you know, there were moments where it was really hard, where we would talk about a specific scene for hours, or a specific moment for days, and I would tell you was like, okay, let's pick it up at another day. But it's just so cool to see how much you've grown to love your work and how much fun you're having with your work. And I think that's, for me, the best part of the process.

Ashley

That's funny that you say that because you're totally right. I hated this script. I was like, what the heck did I write? And now that I've been, you know, I've performed on stage for a live audience like 10, 12 times. ..I'm like, there are bits in this show that I would fight to the death to keep in the show, because I love those bits so much.

And even performing this show, the director has had told me, he's like, I can tell the scenes that you love performing because you have so much fun in them. He's like, you just start to love all the scenes that much. And eventually, like, I got to that point where, you know, there's a little something in each scene that is just so fun.

And I'm at the point now where I forgot that I wrote it! I feel like I'm just an actor now, and I forget that I'm the one who wrote this and so after the show, when people are saying, oh, I can't believe you wrote it, I'm like, oh, yeah! I guess I did write it, didn't I?! (laughs) That was a couple of years ago, I guess!

Col

What are some of those favorite scenes?

Ashley

My favorite scenes are any scene that I have where I'm interacting with Jaime. Like, the whole… when I'm interacting with Ashley's mom, Carolina. Like the whole first 15, 20 minutes of the show, when we are introducing ourselves and then we interact with each other. I love those scenes because we just have so much fun playing on stage. And even when we get in to our scene where we're fighting on stage, we're still having fun fighting with one another.

[clip from the play — Jaime Cesar as Carolina:

San Judas. Por favor, protect this girl from all evil that lurks in this world... y boys, y drogas, y embarazo —

Ashley [interrupting]

And so I said — Can I borrow the car?

Carolina

No!

Ashley

(sigh) Can you ask the Virgin Mary if I can borrow the car?

Carolina

No.

Ashley

Why?! You're so unreasonable.

Carolina

You know what I drove in Mexico? Nothing! I didn't drive nothing.

No driving in Mexico. I took the bus. I rode the bike. I walked in the sun —

Ashley [interrupting]

— with all the cartel behind you, pew pew pew!

Carolina

No, no, no, no, no!

Audience laughs]

Ashley

And a little secret about me… I hate writing dialog. [Kodie, laughing, “yeah, you do!”] That's why I wrote, originally, a one person show, so that I didn't have to write any dialog. And the scenes that I love doing the most are the dialog scenes. And so, yeah, I have so much fun with Jaime, and every night we break the fourth wall a little bit more and we play with each other and ad lib here and there… And when we're ad libbing and having fun, I think that's when our audiences are having the most fun. And it just, like, picks up the energy of the show. And we just, like, all of a sudden it's done — I'm like, it just flew by!

Col

Well, it's really wild to watch — in a great way — because like, Jamie is so maternal in Carolina, and like really is motherly towards you — in like delightful ways, including like, you know, patting your belly casually as a mom would do. But like when, when Jamie hugs you, it really looks like a mom hugging her kid.

But also, there is a layer that is even more confusing — or complicated —because you are playing Ashley King at 18 as Ashley King at 32, or whatever it is. And so we also see that you and Jaime as actors like each other and are friends and have fun and we see you and your mom in this really, like, intense central relationship. And you're so close. And Jamie does not look like your mom, you know. Like, Jaime’s a man (everyone laughs). But he's so good and so, like, really perfect for the for the show. I can't imagine anyone else doing it.

Ashley

I know, and that's what everybody says. Everyone is like no one else could possibly see your mom and all my friends and family who know the OG Carolina that come to the show are like, I see your mom. I see your mom in him. How did you do that?

And you know, people say at the beginning of the show, a man comes out of the wardrobe dressed as a woman, and you're kind of like, ‘what?!’ But by the end of the show, you've forgotten that is a man, and you're completely invested in this mother-daughter relationship — and you believe it.

Col

Yeah, for me, it's, I don't know, maybe 90 seconds into Jamie's first entrance and, as she dance sweeps to Selena and that, to me, is the moment where you're like, oh, you just love Carolina — and Jaime — to death. And you're like, that moment, there's something about — Jaime moves his hips in a particular way that is so perfect.

[clip from the play — Jaime Cesar as Carolina:

Wait. Esperate! I can clean unless I have mi musica!

Start of a cassette tape playing; “Bidi Bom Bom” by Selena. Carolina sings along while she sweeps. The crowd laughs]

Ashley

It's hard because during that exact moment, I'm supposed to be sitting off to the corner, sulking and unimpressed with my mom. And it's hard not to smile at Jaime when he's doing his monologue and introducing himself to the audience, because it is truly so endearing.

Kodie

I mean, we talked about that, too, like when we were working on the script, right? Like, we were talking about how do we earn the moments at the end that are so hard, and how do we do that while staying true to your story? And we talked a lot about how like, okay, if this is a true love story between you and your mom, then both of you need to be likable in the beginning.

And it's so easy to paint each character as like someone that is unlikable, right? Even in a comedy of this type. But I think what was so beautiful to watch, having worked with you for two years, is just how you've grown to really make these characters someone that we root for. And it's just you and your mom, though. You two are people — having met both of you — you're just people that we naturally root for and everyone's drawn to. So being able to translate that on stage in a hyper-stylized way without alienating your audience is quite a skill as a playwright. So I want to really commend you on that.

Ashley

Aw, thank you. I had a lot of help, a LOT of help!

Another thing that I want to talk about in the show is access, because it's something that was in the playwriting, it was in the set, it was in… you know, we were thinking about access from the very beginning of the show, which doesn't happen with a lot of new pieces of work that are being created. And I think, because I am blind, it was a central aspect to this show to think about. How do you guys think we brought access into this show?

Col

I'll talk a little bit about the audio description because we had theories… and now we have it in reality, and they didn't totally match up. So, I feel like for myself, as an audio describer and for us at Inside Out, you know, producing accessible work, I learned a lot.

So audio description is, for blind audience members, a describer is through a kind of closed system with a microphone with a describer and little headphones with the audience members, essentially just describing any visual stuff. Visual storytelling, actor movements, design changes, things popping up on the screens, things like that.

And our original hope was, actually, to have Marshall, who played Ashley in a previous workshop — Marshall is also a brilliant drag artist — and the original hope was to script the description and have Marshall record it in character, essentially. Essentially, a very sassy description, trying to match the same vibe and tone that you have on stage.

But also, as we were talking about, how loose — by design — the show is… that you are responding to the audience, you have the freedom to adlib. You know, timing changes depending on what kind of energy the audience is giving you. You and him are very funny and loose and able to, really quickly, you know, mention things that are happening. But it means that the show is never the same, really, night after night. Which I think is ideal for the live show but does not work with prerecorded, static — haha, Static! — descriptions. Like set descriptions that do not change every night. Because, you know, we recorded Marshall a couple of weeks ago. So that was a big discovery of what competing needs sometimes show up. With the needs of the show and the needs of access. And on top of that, another element of access that we were working to provide was Spanish translations of the show. And likewise, with Yvan, one of our amazing team members and our community engagement coordinator — he translated your whole script and recorded Spanish translations, kind of scene-by-scene, that we did work to share for a night.

But again, the prerecorded translations didn't always match up with the scenes. You know, because if either something happened and you add a joke, or an audience is like really into a joke and laughing a lot — so that adds an extra, like three seconds of holding for laughter — which is great, but also like, gets our translations out of sync. But I think there's still a future for us for prerecorded description or translations, but just matched with the right show.

Ashley

Yeah, a lot of pivoting. And there was a lot of, like, in the script writing as well, where we tried to add in audio description already written into the script. In which we had to hire a disability dramaturg, Jess Watkin, who was fantastic in helping us point out parts in the script that were not accessible to somebody who wouldn't be able to see the show. What do you think, Kodie?

Kodie

Yeah, when I think of access for the show, I think of everything that Col said and everything that you're starting to say, Ashley, too. But there was just so much discovery, and what I loved and learned the most about accessibility is, with regards to creating a theatre piece, is just the bravery to try shit. There's also folks who really mean well and they're afraid to try because of, you know, what the perception of getting it wrong is.

And what I loved about this process is that we always pivoted based off of what we learned. And if we made a mistake, we acknowledged that, you know, a mistake was made, pivot, let's try something. And that was really great because, when dramatizing the show, Ash, most of my practice, requires visual tools, right? So I usually put things on sticky notes or I highlight things for other playwrights. So learning about oral dramaturgy, and how do we work together in order to create a script and a show that puts you, your needs, your story at the centre of it was a huge learning curve for me. And I did make mistakes, but I think we really moved in the spirit of trust, and so we were able to pivot as needed.

And then we were able to bring in some really, really cool people for the areas that we weren't as knowledged on, right? So having Jess Watkin come in to talk about, okay, like if this show was fully audio, what are the pieces of information that is required to be in the show for everyone to get it? Or how do we make jokes? Like all of the huge bits that you love, how do we add an audio aspect to it so that like, yes, we have Col audio describing things, but we're also able to embed that so that there's not that much of a delay.

But also when I think of access, I think of the cultural access that we've had with this show. You know, it was important for us at Xhromatic, but also Inside Out, to bring in Latin audiences and make sure that the Latinx community felt comfortable being in this space. So there was a lot of work in terms of providing Spanish translation, which Col already talked about how we learned so much about that. But also, like, building meaningful partnerships so it didn't feel extractive. So, connecting with local organizations such as the Hispanic Art Society, hiring an engagement coordinator who is Latinx, who could speak to that experience and engage with community and bring folks in in a meaningful way. Within this intersectionality of culture and disability, being able to think of both those things was super important. And, you know, I'd be remiss if I didn't also bring up Daniela Atiencia, who we hired as our cultural consultant, because she brought in so much insight in terms of, okay, how do we touch on these cultural jokes in a really, really meaningful way? So that, you know, Latinx audiences who come in don't feel like, oh, yeah, I'm just watching a theatre show as it is created in this Eurocentric way, but that they can see themselves represented on this stage. So that's what I think is super cool about how both of our companies, but also all of the artists involved, talked and thought about access.

Ashley

Totally. I would agree with that. I think there's a lot of intersectionality that took place in the show, and I think we did a pretty good job at handling a lot of it. I personally just love that, on our stage right now, we've got these pretty little mandalas painted everywhere, and the ones that are the right colors that I can see is how I find my light, and I know where to stand and just little things like that. I think that just makes such a big difference in, like, the grand scheme of performances, when we think about different ways that we do access, like from what you're talking about and what Col’s mentioned and… Yeah, access can look like a lot of different things.

Kodie

I want to talk about an interaction I had with a pal of mine who came to see the show. So we were talking about access, and I was telling them about the painted mandalas, and she was telling me, ‘I didn't even think of that being like an access tool, because it was so embedded and woven into the set that it just felt like, oh yeah, this is part of the set design.’ But it's so cool to see the artistry that can come out of access needs, and talking about access needs. Where it's not necessarily just, like, an accommodation — that most folks think about, which could be “disruptive,” but we can really find beautiful artistic ways to still, you know, honour your access needs, but have it be so woven into the design, which I think is super cool.

Ashley

I totally agree. I think that we did a really great job in doing that, and I would love to see that happen on more shows because it doesn't always happen. On that note, I want to know, are there any anecdotes or any interesting things that you guys learned from this process?

Col

Oh, I have learned so much about you, Ashley. (everyone laughs) I. And I… and I can't unlearn it now (more laughter)

I have a question for you — I have something that I hadn't considered before, but I've been thinking a lot about as the show has been up and I've been watching or listening every night. Someone asked me about this, too. Was there any recourse, or did anything happen to the club that served you the drink? Is there any justice in this story? Like, did you like tell the police? Did anything happen or…?

Ashley

My justice is that show. Because there was no justice. When I was in the hospital in New Zealand, the doctors asked if I would like to create a formal report with the police and contact police in Bali. And I had just spent 35 days in Bali. I saw how corrupt the country was. I saw how you could just pay a police officer for, you know, an illegal turn or whatever it might be. I had read a bit about their prison system while I was there, just in a book that I was reading. I knew that there was nothing that was going to happen, that I would receive justice. And, as we hear in the story later on, there is a family who loses their son to methanol poisoning. And that family has fought so hard for justice, like has gotten Smirnoff involved, has gotten accounts like my own to use to sue in Bali.

And, a lot of Aussies, who are usually the folks who are affected by this because they're so close to Bali, a lot of folks who have been trying to fight for justice, it's so dangerous for them. They receive death threats, whether it be bar owners or the police in Bali, because realistically, this ruins their tourism. And so there are a lot of — there are people who were paid off, there were judges who were told to look the other way. Because at the end of the day, as much as they don't want you to be drinking in Bali because it's a Muslim country, it brings in tourism and they don't want that to be affected. So I think the only justice is going to be people being aware of this, that this happens and that this could happen to you or a loved one. And it still happens today. But I feel like this show is my justice. It's the show is my fuck you.

Col

Yeah… I'll tell you, the most meaningful part of this whole process for me, was actually on the last day of our most recent design workshop, which was a big team, like everybody was there, and we were doing a kind of final checkout. And at that checkout, Ashley, you talked about how you took this saddest part of your life and have found a way to make it joyful for yourself. And that fucking sent me off the edge (everyone laughs)

That was, for me — like that, to me — because that’s the personal dream. That's not the artistic dream, that's just my dream for you as a friend, is that through doing work like this — that is, you know, so vulnerable and really hard to do — but that that is the feeling you had, on that day anyways, meant the world to me. And I held on to that one minute that you had telling us that and we all wept and it was beautiful.

Ashley

I never know when you guys are crying (Col laughs) I never know! And you guys are such quiet criers! But it's true though, like this was the shittiest thing that's ever happened to me. And I feel like I've been able to reclaim it and turn it into the most amazing thing that's ever happened to me in my life. Like writing my own play, performing my own play, being on stage is — is like the dream that I've literally had as a kid.

Kodie

So Ash, I have a follow up question for you. Does it finally feel real?

Ashley

Yeah!

Kodie

I ask that because throughout our time working together, you know, every time I tell you, oh, yeah, you know, after the playwrights’ unit, we'll talk. Because then we'll have a script workshop with each other. Or, you know, Col and I talked and we agreed that we would love to co-produce your show. You would always say, oh, my God, Kodie it doesn't feel real yet. It doesn't feel real yet. And even at the design workshop, you were like, I can't believe all these people are working on my stuff. But it doesn't feel real yet!

So it brings me so much joy to hear a confirmation right now that it finally feels real for you. Because you know you've worked on the show for a really long time, and it's such a beautiful story. And the thing that I learned from this process is, you know, building a theatre show is hard. And sometimes in the work of it, you forget the impact the show can have on audiences. But, you know, having been at the show most nights and working the box office and hearing what people have to say afterwards, the impact of this show is so strong. Hearing what audiences have to say after and being like, this is such a beautiful show, this is so great! Or, you folks wrecked me, how dare you, or I need to go call my mom. Like, these were amazing things to hear. They really connect with you and Jamie and with the story. And so that is so beautiful. And it reminds me all the time of, like, why I do this as an artist and why this art form is so important.

Ashley

Absolutely. I've forgotten in this process that like, there's going to be an impact because people are going to come and see it. Because at the end of the day, I'm always like, I'm just having fun on stage and I'm a Leo at heart, and so I just love running around on stage and making people laugh, and I'm doing it for my own selfish fun. But the impact and the reaction that we've gotten is what's made it so real for me, and has made me be like — with all the help that I've had from everybody, we've done this thing like it truly is the biggest accomplishment I feel like I have in my life to this day. I might have peaked at 32 (laughs).

Kodie

You have other plays to write too, right? We talked about that too, you know.

Ashley

But I'll never have, like, I'll never have this first again, you know? The first play, the first time I turned this really awful, shitty, terrible thing into something that people can laugh at and enjoy and have fun with. And I enjoy… Like, telling you my story is really sad and depressing, but I go out every night and I have so much fun talking about going blind and being depressed (laughs). Like it's such, a mind fuck… Like, it's, Yeah. I couldn't be happier that I've been given this opportunity and that the world and stars have aligned for this to happen, and I'm going to be a goddamn mess this upcoming week when the show is over and I'm just sitting in my living room being like, Well, now what? (laughs)

Oh, guys, thank you so much for chatting with me today and for one, working with me, but two, also being my friend. Because you guys have been like my little shoulders — my big shoulders! — to cry on and to turn to and through this whole thing. I wouldn't be where I am today, like, without the two of you. So I really am very thankful that the universe put me in your guys' direction.

Col

Well, we're so proud of you, Ashley, and love you so much.

Kodie

Gross. (everyone laughs) we love you too.

Ashley

Ew, stop! You’re going to make me cry! (more laughter)

[podcast theme music]